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September 30, 2006

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The only possible silver lining is that both Immonen and Dawes are still in camp. Both have each spent a year in Hartford and proved ready for the next level. It seems as if Immonen could fill any center slot on the team providing both solid defense as well as offense, while Dawes seems to be an energetic pest with a nose for the net.

On the flipside, I felt Dubinsky could easily have learned just as much if not more providing 6-8 minutes (possibly some special teams play) on a fourth line assignmnet with some energy players.

In a way last years success may hurt some of the younger players chances. Lets all hope that the "braintrust" remains committed to giving the prospects meaningful minutes, while keeping their trained eye on the big picture. Sometimes it doesn't feel that way, especially when Renney suggests Prucha shouldnt be rushed.

Well the kid only put up 30 goals and played a responsible game while also contributing physically. Not many players combine all three. Tom please let the horses loose and learn on the job!

Vlo: This is the same guy who last year arbitrarily said "Kevin Weekes is my #1 goalie. And that's that." Although he proved he deserved minutes last year, Prucha only got his chance after a vet was injured. I think Rucinsky. Otherwise he would have been a fourth liner or languishing in Hartford. Look for Hossa and Rachunek to take valuable minutes from Dawes and Pock/Baranka (if they make the team)

Jagr and HL made Renney look like the genius he isn't.

That's a shame. Dubinsky could probably learn a lot by being around the veterans, particularly Shanny who seems to have taken time out to help the kids. Let's hope he doesn't stay in Hartford all year, particularly if he's lighting it up. Sam and Joe pointed out in the Ranger Islander game how Dubinsky skated over and bumped an Islander player after that player hit a ranger. That's leadership and character. Don't see that from Hossa.

Dawes scored again. Start up the Hartford bus.

the rangers are starting to revert. slowly, theyre starting to revert to their unproductive old ways.
hossa has a name and if fedor federov had been like hossa, hed be up here too. why? he's got a name.

however, i woudlnt mind seeing hossa develop, so im not ready to give up on hope on him either.

I guess the PP woke up today ....

>>>> picking up two man-advantage goals by Petr Prucha and Brendan Shanahan in the first period, and one by Jaromir Jagr in the second. Nigel Dawes added a 4-on-4 tally just 54 seconds after Jagr scored <<<<

I think, although it is a bit disheartening, that they always had a thought of sending Dubinsky down. From interviews I read from Maloney and others it seems that they expect these players to be up here next year, unless injury forces them to bring some up this year ... It seems like Immonen will stay up here, although I believe that Dawes should too ... It is disheartening only because Hossa continues to underperform, and I know he has a 600K contract and he has to pass waivers to be sent down but he, at the moment, does not deserve a spot over Dubinsky .... But whatever, last season we had Prucha, Tutyn, and Henrik which were not expected to play much, at least Henrik and Prucha and through injury or whatever they forced their way into the lineup and stuck .. through his play this season Prucha has given himseld a 2nd line job right now but the question with Prucha is his stamina over 82 games plus the playoffs which prompted Renney to want him on the 3rd line ... Prucha himself admitted that he worked hard this summer to improve his stamina so that he would have more energy near the end of the year ....

I continue to see the team making strides, when I see the team stuck in neutral or going backwards well then I will start to worry ...

This year, let's see Dawes, Immonen & Pock.
Next year, let's see Dubinsky, Baranka & Jessiman.
I would say 2 to 3 rookies per year would build a monster club..
Hossa, OUT like Seacrest..

If Hossa plays like Hossa during the season I really can't imagine him spending much time here.

Though I'm not the biggest fan of Renney, I think people may be overreacting here. After last season, I think he deserves at least some credit for reintroducing the youth movement into the team. My feeling is that he's a bit too conservative in that area -- ie. he takes longer than many of us would like before commiting to using the kids in a meaningful way. He seems to favor a slow and steady approach to bringing them along, and he's certainly open to criticism on that front. But it may work out just fine in the long run; the key, as far as I'm concerned, is making a sustained commitment to using these young players year after year once they make the team. I know many of you are high on Immonen and Dawes, but I'm not yet convinced that either is ready to have a strong season with the varsity. If they struggle, what happens then? The same will hold true for the next (and, to my thinking, more impressive) wave -- guys like Dubinsky and Korpikoski. How the team deals with this long-term issue will determine the future of this franchise, not decisions as to who makes the team on Oct. 1.

And as for Hossa, he's becoming one of those storylines I've grown weary of reading about, like Paris Hilton.

Okay, four rookies from last year - Lundqvist, Prucha, Tyutin and Hollweg - all look improved from last. Another one - Dom Moore - establishes himself as a legit NHLer, and gets used as an asset to get a player closer to the style the Rangers wish to play (Hall). The likes of Immonen, Dawes and Baranka establish themselves at the AHL level and are on the verge of winning spots on this year's team, a legitimate playoff contender and possibly a Cup contender. Meanwhile, a bunch of kids fresh out of juniors, (Dubinsky), the college ranks (Moore) or Europe (Korpikoski), move into Hartford to do the same that the likes of Immonen, Dawes and Baranka did last year. Hmmm....seems to be working by my calculations. Oh, and is it too early to declare Bobby Sanguinetti a STUD PROSPECT and the steal of the 2006 draft?! (Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.)

Why is Dubinsky competing with Hossa for a spot? Dubinsky is a center, Hossa is not. I don't think Dubinsky being sent down has anything to do with Hossa.

Rather, it has to do with Immonen playing better and Dubinsky being in the position where he has more to learn at the pro level, and Immonen does not.

I disagree with the early concensus, and I am glad to see some others also preaching patience. I don't see these logical moves as having any serious downside. I will continue to feel that way in a few days, when probably Dawes and Baranka follow Dubinsky to Hartford. Immonen and Pock are the logical guys to start the season in the NHL. Staal is 19 yr old amateur, Dubinsky a 20 yr old neophyte, and Dawes and Baranka both 21, with only 1 year pro to-date. They will likely all be NHL regulars well before they are 24. Pock and Immonen are 24, with a few years of pro experience at multiple levels. Within a few weeks, the Rangers will have some bruises, injuries, roster moves etc. Then these prize prospects will get their shot. At some point soon after that, like Prucha, they'll be prove essential and earn a fulltime role. Be patient. It is all good.

It has to do with one words: accountability and entitlement.

For the past several years, the Ranger way of making decisions has been: Youth must be accountable, vets get a pass. Vets: entitled. Youth: fuhgeddaboutit.

Horrible messages sent by management and coaches. It's also what Davidson preached on his perch and continues to preach in St. Louis.

that should read "two words".

Same ol , same ol with gentle Tom Renney. not a very physical line up when putrid Hossa plays on the 4th line as he did today.
I watched Hossa closely today and I almost threw up. He has nothing to his game while Dubinsky is three times the player heartless Hossa is.,Dubi has more skill and playmaking ability and oozes character. Hossa doesn't even know what the word means.
Very disappointing

What really annoys me is that this team throws so few
hits, I want to see more bone-crunching hits.

Straka and Betts are proving more and more that they
are expendable. Without Betts this team plays better
just look at the record when he was out with an
injury.

At this point I would try to pull off a trade like
Hossa, Immonen and Pock to Atlanta for Alex Bourret.
Thrashers get Hossa brothers and a center that can set
up Kovalchuk or Hossa. While we free up some spots
and get a legitimate top RW prospect. Then ship off
Betts for 4th rounder. Also would try to get Ladd for
Sauer, Liffiton, and Sraka.

lines:

Ladd-Nylander-Jagr
Prucha-Cullen-Shanahan
Dawes-Dubinsky-Hall
Hollweg-Helminen-Ward
Orr

Ward-Tyutin
Malik-Rozsival
Kasparaitis-Baranka
Rachunek-Richter

Mr. Rothma:

I agree with Jess about your commentary. I wouldn't have put it quite in the terms he did, but the heart of what he wrote is 100% on the ball. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion even if it is as clsoe to accurate as "Mission Accomplished" or "I did not sleep with that woman, Miss. Lowinsky."

When you make a trade suggestion, which I am opposed to positng anyway, but for the purpose of discussion, you can't just dump players that you see as excess and hope to rob another team of some great player(s). Other GM's are not stupid...for the most part anyway. They are also looking to unload on you what they can't use. In order for a trade to be accomplished two major things have to happen. 1) Both teams need t ocome away thinking that they've improved themselves in some manner, shape or form. 2) The money has to make sense.

But you do bring up one point that I do what to address. You say in trading Immonen that would give Atlanta basically a first line or second line center. If that was ttruly the case that they would want someone like that, why would The Rangers want to part with him? It doesn't make any sense...that's the reason why.

I am also glad to read some truly interesting points made by others today even if I don't totally agree. I'm excited to see that people are really elaborating their arguments so well lately. It's that or maybe I'm just paying more attention to what I'm reading? Maybe this Ritalin stuff really works? :)

"Best Explained Point of the Morning" to me goes to Cwede who, I not only agree with and I think I'm the person CWede is talking about, but that I happen to think hits it right out of the park...

BTW, don't forget to check in for our 4 on 4 special Season Preview edition coming up this Wednesday night from 7-10pm. Great guests and great talk and please, if you are a regualr reader to this site, you should invest in it and buy a subscription to the magazine...

this is what Larry Brooks wrote today (btw, when predicting a Cup for the Rangers) "They have young players who are likely to emerge over the course of the year. The roster - and ice time - in March is likely to be significantly different than the one that opens the season"
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10012006/sports/now_you_can_die_again__sports_larry_brooks.htm

There were also disappointing roster moves this weekend in Hartford, where Dale Purinton and Francis Lessard are still there, following initial cuts. Enough of the young Rangers [ie Weller, Falardeau, Byers, Kozak, Graham, Moore, Dubinsky, Jessiman, Taylor, Liffiton] have size, grit, or both, that they shouldn't need 30-ish, lesser-talent journeyman goons to protect them, stealing away icetime and roster spots from prospects.

with Betts we went 31-23-11
without we were 13-3-1

huge difference if you ask me.

Mitch my trade suggestions made plenty of sense.
Immonen is a nice, but not great player and would fill
Savard's shoes better than Rucchin. Why did Rangers
let such "great" talent like Rucchin leave when he
centered Selanne, Kariya and now will likely center
Hossa or Kovalchuk? Why did Rangers get rid of Savard
who centered Kovalchuk? Maybe we trade Immonen
because we have Cullen signed for 4 years and Dubinsky
is developing better and faster? Plus we get a great
20 yearold RW prospect in return.

Jess I get entertainment value from physical games,
but I guess you prefer those Renney-like boring
unemotional games.

I traded 6 players? Lets see Sauer has constant
injury problems and we got enough depth on defense now
with Baranka, Sanguinetti, Staal, etc. Liffiton has
injury problems and will never make the Rangers
because of depth and because he is not that great.
Straka has injury problems all his career, he has
serious problems scoring goals and he won't be back
next season with the Rangers. Immonen I already
mentioned. Pock is ok, but nothing really special, we
still have Ozolinsh and now Rachunek. Hossa is
decent, but not much room for him, especially when
Ortmeyer comes back. What we get is 2 power forwards,
LW and RW, one 5'10" 215lbs the other 6'2" 200+lbs.
Both can score, skate and love to hit. We are not
really gambling much because we have too much depth
already, the only gamble is to sit on top of all that
depth and be afraid to make trades to improve quality
of that depth at expense of quantity.

Bourret likely had no concussion or a very mild one
because he played last night and had an assist on the
only Thrasher goal. And who cares what his +/- was in
juniors, you should think about Betts last season
being -10 which was teams worst. Ladd will be fine he
didn't have any really serious injuries I believe.
BTW Lindros is still playing.

Jess, after your extreme rude remarks I will
definitely stop subscribing to your magazine, thanks
for treating your customers like crap.

Well i didnt mean to start the debate between people overreacting and those who have the virtue of patience. I wholeheartedly agree that management's decisions will benefit younger players in the organization with limited pro experience, but at the same time it would have been nice to see decisions made on players on perfromance alone. Maybe im still shell-shocked from the previous decade (even though there have been tremendous strides made, Prucha, Hollweg, Lundqvist, Tyutin would never have gotten a sniff ten years ago).

By the way, this sight has been a wonderful diversion from clinging onto hope that you may hear some hockey analysis in some of the more mainstream avenues. Ive been so impressed with the level of discussion as well as some educated banter. It's so disheartening to hear the morons on the Fan discuss this great sport when they dedicate those ten minutes out of the year to talk abput something other than college basketball. Yes, Mr. Rothma sounded like the typical beerguzzling fan, who sits behind you screaming "Kill him, rip his head off!" But Jess a simple "That's pretty ridiculous", would have sufficed. You may have come off a little pompous and theres no reason for that here, where everyone shares the some qualities of passion for hockey and of course the Rangers. Poor Mr. Rothma just has to realize that this isnt his fantasy league where he can plunder his half witted brother in-law out of Ovechkin, Kovalchuk and Jagr for his favorite player Shawn Bates.

Lets go Rangers, see you guys Thursday night.

Dubi, how can you allow those kind of discussions on this board ???

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion but you guys treating each other in abusing in the worst possible manner. I thought that would be a board, where you have some interesting discussion going on, especially for someone like me from overseas not beeing able so close to NYR. I am really dissapointed about the level of this discussion..

Dubi, you need to call some penalties and that shouldn´t be only minors as this act of unsportsmanlike conduct...!!!!

I am sorry, but where is the disrespect here? I do not see anyone disrespecting anyone or maybe I am somehow immune and just can't tell ? =)

Matty, my guess is some incendiary posts got deleted, because I came to this thread late too and didn't notice anything crazy. I think we missed the fireworks!

Ok good Kev because for a moment there I thought I was seriously not grasping something important lol ...

First off Dubi deleted my remarks which is his right to do.

People think they know how to make NHL trades without looking at the bigger picture. Giving up 6 players for 2 very unproven ones is too much. His RW prospect was out for over 2 weeks WITH A CONCUSSION. A guy who scores 114 points and is only a +11 is a problem. Someone who isn't even 6 ft tall cannot be a power forward.

Ozolinsh and Rachunek are are not good enough reasons to dump Pock either. The Rangers are not at the point where giving away prospects like they were nothing is going to help this franchise especially giving away 6 players for 2.

1. 2 weeks out with concussion = a mild concussion

2. Prucha, Hollweg, Kasparaitis are all under 6 feet
tall and they play very physical, you don't have to be
6'5" to crash the net, score, and throw hits

3. Whether you like it or not, Rachunek and Ozolinsh
are here and are almost untradeable.

4. I am the one looking at the big picture, you are
just looking to win now. We already lost for nothing
a bunch of prospects like Crabb, Genoway, Guenin, etc.
due to too much depth.

5. Bourret was only +11 due to playing on a bad team
and his goalies were pretty bad as well. What is your
reason for Betts being -10 last season?

Glad you're back stating your opinion, Mr. Rothma. I agree with your point re. toughness: i much prefer it come from guys like Hollweg who are effectively tough within the flow of the game, and not just some one-dimensional goon who is out there to fight. The Rangers sure could use a couple more like Hollweg, especially if we return to the post-season.

Dubinsky has obviously worked at his game and it's great that he was fighting for a spot, but w/ the logjam at center, he will greatly benefit from playing more minutes in more games at HFD, than light minutes with the NYR's at his age. Same for Staal...

Okay, here's why these trade prososals almost always fail...there are so many contributing factors to making a deal that people always neglect a few of them. For example, Hossa/Immonen/Pock for Bourret. Three of those players have NHL salaries; one does not (to the best of my knowledge). Atlanta is a team with cap difficulties, but, the proposal assumes Atlanta is willing to take on additional money and players while not removing either salary or a player from their roster. Plus, for the most part, value is only determined after a trade. What inclination does Atlanta have to make such a deal? They want to team Marian and Marcel together? Doesn't seem enough of an incentive for them to give up one of their better young prospects.

jas, by my count Atlanta is under 39 mil which gives
them cap room of 5 mil. They look like they lack
depth and lack a center that can set up Kovalchuk.
They would likely have to play Bourret most of the
season because of lack of depth and his salary is
likely higher than any of the 3 players we are
sending.

Hossa and Pock are only 600K each
Immonen I am pretty sure has a 2 way contract

I think it is a fair deal any way you put it, Bourret
is likely to be the best player in the deal, but the
other 3 will turn out to be good as well, we just need
to do something or next summer we'll lose a bunch of
prospects like Olver, Degon, etc. just like we lost
Lundmark, Balej, Wiseman, Giroux, Genoway, Crabb,
Guenin, Paiement, Labarbera, Walsh, Stals, Rawlyk,
Rodney, Brandon Cullen, etc. all for nothing.
I rather get some value for them than lose them for
nothing. We are just wasting assets by sitting on top
of a great heap of prospects.

jas, by my count Atlanta is under 39 mil which gives
them cap room of 5 mil. They look like they lack
depth and lack a center that can set up Kovalchuk.
They would likely have to play Bourret most of the
season because of lack of depth and his salary is
likely higher than any of the 3 players we are
sending.

Hossa and Pock are only 600K each
Immonen I am pretty sure has a 2 way contract

I think it is a fair deal any way you put it, Bourret
is likely to be the best player in the deal, but the
other 3 will turn out to be good as well, we just need
to do something or next summer we'll lose a bunch of
prospects like Olver, Degon, etc. just like we lost
Lundmark, Balej, Wiseman, Giroux, Genoway, Crabb,
Guenin, Paiement, Labarbera, Walsh, Stals, Rawlyk,
Rodney, Brandon Cullen, etc. all for nothing.
I rather get some value for them than lose them for
nothing. We are just wasting assets by sitting on top
of a great heap of prospects.

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