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July 22, 2006

Comments

Well, I guess you guys at the BULLetin are right. We got screwed. Hall is a bum and we let go a potential second line center. Get over it, Moore was expendable and Hall is the best we could get for him! Lets get back to the positive side of the Rangers quest to improve themselves. It's going to be another interesting and entertaining season so let's just say "It's a great day for hockey",eh?

I think the BB staff has a major crush on Dom Moore. That's the only explanation for the obsessive coverage, right? Any more whining and I'll have to call you guys a WAAAAAAAH-mbulance. I love what you do, but, jeeze, is he paying you for positive PR or something?

Dubi You are leaving out one other fact of Moore's goals - basically, he scored two empty net goals in January and then had one goal the rest of the way.

... and a meaningless one at that.

To RangerBill and Eugene, I think that Jess and Dubi are incredibly intelligent hockey minds. There are very few circumstances where I have flat out disagreed with their assessment of things. Dubi has given me a voice that I never expected that I would have in the Ranger community and I've learned an immeasurable amount form Jess about the prospects that are in juniors and I'm also grateful for his help in getting Trevor Koverko to be our guest on the 4th. Even though every word of what I've written here is true, let's put the ass-kissing aside though for a minute. if you've read my posts, and you can check the previous threads since this trade went down, you will see that I completely support the decision to trade Dom Moore because I don't think he was that important to the overall success of the team. he did play a big part in the success of the penalty kill and the harrassing nature of the so called HMO, 4th line...and he was great in the Bobby granger commericals too by the way, but he IMO he is FAR from being a premier NHL player. To me he is a journeyman player that will play for maybe 4 or 5 years and then go off to do whatever. Now on the other hand I do want it to be a public record that both Dubi and Jess make great arguments for their cases. I just don't agree. One last note. I also believe that there is going to be one other major addition to this team via either a trade or free agent signing and I would not be the least bit surprised if either Prucha, Hall, or Hossa were included in it. There is a reason that Slats & Company has the team at almost $7 million below the cap. All I will tell you from what I'm hearing is watch the results of the arbitration hearings VERY closely. I think that the winds could blow an unexpected player into our laps.

I hope that everyone has a tremendous week-end and that you will all join us on the 4th from 8-10pm when our guests on line will be Mike Hudson of the 94 Cup Winning team, Trevor koverko, the Rangers 05 5th round pick, Hockey Rodent and Lyle Richardson of Spector's Hockey as well as Dubi and myself...Jess has the night off. I for one will miss Jess's insight, but it should be a great time and I hope you'll join in on the festivities...

Mitch

First of all, I want to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly about what Dubi and Jess have provided here, between Jess's info in regards to prospect and the overall content is outstanding. I happen to disagree with their arguments in regards to Dom Moore, that is all. And, all I've attempted to do in my arguments and their's is point out where I think their respective arguments are flawed IMO. I fall into the same category as you do with regard to Dom Moore. I thank him for the job he did the past year, but, I think he is replaceable and that, out of anybody, Jess would be most inclined to see the players we have in the system the would at some point replace. My belief on having a strong farm system is not just that every player drafted will someday be a Ranger, but also, a strong prospect pool allows a team to deal from strength and fill holes. IMO, and from what I've taken from things Don Maloney has said, the key players in the system, who are most likely to be major parts of the core the Rangers are building are Dubinsky, Korpikoski, Staal, Sauer and Greg Moore. Myself, I'd probably add the likes of Cliche, Dupont, Sanguinetti and Anisimov as players who could also end up being in that category in the near future. That means, for the most part, anyone else I haven't mentioned are available in the right deal.

As for your point about one last big addition - I also agree with you. I've seen too many sources I trust...Rodent, a fellow poster at HF whom I respect greatly and now both Jess and yourself...mention this very possibility. My guess is it will be someone for 2nd line center.

Mitch, I believe we have watched the board light up regarding Moore due to the fact the fans connected with him. The fans connected with Fotiu in his day yet he was far from ever hoping to reach the HOF. The fans also have a bond with Prucha and Lundqvist on a much higher level as they see star potential written all over those 2 guys. I also mentioned some bonding with Malik since his shot heard round the world. Any time there is a trade involving a fan favorite (aka Giacomin, Ratelle, Park, Middleton) there's bound to be an outburst. Was Moore a key cog in the structure? Probably not but the fans just loved this guys work ethic and connected on an emotional level.
Prucha has emerged as my own favorite youngster. When was the last time I saw this type of promise in a young kid? Don Murdoch comes to mind or maybe Steve Vickers. I do see Prucha as being a star for years to come and I hope any speculation that a trade would occur is just speculation. Bad speculation at that!

Bob:

I truly enjoy reading your comments as well as Jas, and not just because we agree so often. I think a lot of the connection Dom Moore had with the fans had more to do with the fact that the Rangers were marketing him pretty heavily, ie he was interviewed very often, not just in Ranger games,but also in The Blueshirt extra or whatever it was called and oc ourse in the Bobby Granger commercial. In game, I can't tell you how many times I saw the "Meet Dominick Moore" video. If you don't think this had a lot to do with his popularity, you're mistaken.

As for Prucha, I like Jagr's bunkie myself, but remember you don't get something if you don't give up something and I happen to be one of those guys that thinks, remember I like him, that he is going to have a couple of good years but he does not have a long career in front of him. This kid is going to get killed out there. I would not be at all surprised if he went in a deal that brought back a big name young player to play on the first two lines. WE'll all have to wait and see.

One piece of news that Dubi hasn't gotten to that I just read on the NHLPA website. Apparently the Rangers and Adam Hall have reached agreement on a one year deal for, hold on to your hats, $975,000 up from $600K he got last year. Even as a young guy if this is correct we are not tied to him for a long stay if he blows up on us. The youth movement is still in place. In fact if you look at the Outside the Garden website you'll see that at this point there are only 8 players signed beyond this year. Cullen (2 more), Jagr (1 plus option), Kasper (1 more), Lundqvist (1 more), Malik (1 more) Nylander (1 option) Prucha (1 more) and Aaron Ward (1 more). I would suggest looking at that and thinking that through. If what Don Maloney has been saying is true and that they feel that the prospects are 1 more year from being ready, then the 07-08 team could be EXTREMELY young. That owuld explain a lot to me where the Rangers are setting themselves up...let's be competitive now while Jagr is in his prime and then we'll reload with a new wave of young guys and sprinkle in a couple of veterans to keep them at least competitive for a year before these kids can fly on their own. Doing that last bit of research really gets me psyched for this year and especially for the following year.

As they used to say in the editorials on channel 11, "You have an opinion? We'd like to know..."

I just want to know which guy broke my satellite dish????

Was it Charles Wang because I mentioned that his last name is also used as a slur for a part of the male body and his was so small that not even the Hubble Telescope could find it? (hey that is what Milbury and Snow told me)

Was it Adam Hall for my non-support of the trade?

Or was it Dom Moore because I didn't give him a shoulder to cry on?

Was it Throwaway as I found empty generic beer cans nearby?

I bet it was that dorkish Islander fan who used to post over at RFC named Capt Ego who was upset that now more than ever his Fishies are the laughing stocks of the entire hockey world.

Either way I expect those of you who wish to continue to post on the Hall/Moore debate to pay the new 1.50 per post fee to help me purchase a new dish.

This isn't a knock on Dominic Moore at all, but I never felt connected to him as a fan, and you won't find many bigger than me. I'm not entirely sure he was a huge fan favorite to begin with. Liked? Yes. Respected? Absolutely. Representative of the hard working, high character types we've all been praying the Rangers would develop for years? Without a doubt. But he just didn't have enough of a public profile to become truly loved, in my opinion.

In fact, the REAL reason this board lit up about his trade is because Dubi (and to a lesser extent, Jess) slammed it right from the get go. And as we all know from reading these threads, Dubi and Jess were decidedly in the minority on this one.

Now enough with the past; who are the Rangers targeting with their remaining cap space? The rumors surrounding which players will be set free following their arbitration hearings are killing me!

I think this is way too much coverage of such an insignificant trade... I don't see how Dom Moore had a long term future with the organization...

We can't reward every 3rd & 4th liner on the team with a strong work ethic by refusing to replace them... The team would never improve and I expect every young player who joins the team to have a similar work ethic as we witnessed this past season...

Jeesh if there is such a big stink around here about losing Dom Moore what's it going to be like when Ortmeyer eventually traded/replaced? That's inevitable.

I also don't think you'll see Prucha included in any trade...

Mitch, if you think Prucha won't survive in the NHL, can you explain why other GM's would be interested in him? And why Sather's phone was lit up at the trade deadline with inquiries about his availability? Why are some Ranger fans quick to label him injury prone and too small for the league yet other teams want to acquire him?

Cap wise it is very smart to keep a 24 year old 30 goal scorer on board... if Dawes doesn't score much when he eventually lands a spot on the roster where does that leave us offensively among our prospects? Waiting for Callahan to develop? Management has to realize that Prucha put up 30 goals last season despite averaging 13 minutes a game and logging many of his even strength minutes with the offensively challenged 3rd line (Betts & Ward)... If all Prucha has to do is bulk up and play a little less of a risky game along the boards, then it's definitely in their best interest to retain him and find out just what he's capable of his 2nd season in the league...

Sather/Maloney have been very smart managing the cap... Moving players with low salaries to acquire a top 6 forward that's too 'expensive' for another team to retain just doesn't fit well with what their recent past actions suggest...

i just want to say that i think that moores goal against the panthers when he banked it off of luongo was one of the coolest, slickest and flat out more amazing (not to mention clutch) goals ive ever seen.
c'mon, that goal was something else. the time, the manner, the effect it had.
that one goal was spectacular.

i say nothing else.

You really think we'll make a trade for a 2nd line center when we signed Cullen for all that money? I don't know but time will tell. Is it October yet?????? ;)

Have you guys heard about the rumor that says Toots might be going back to Russia next year? I'm starting to get nervous about him not re signing with us.

ladyranger79

Cullen can easily drop down to third line center, or even to third line LW, depending upon the makeuo of the team. In fact, I'd love to see a third line of Dawes-Cullen-Ward, since I believe it would be a storng forechecking unit that would provide more offense than last year's 3rd line.

I hope you're right, jaz!!

I think if the Rangers traded Prucha, it would be like the same old same old of this organizations' history of trading away talented young players and getting in return someone not as good. I do NOT want to see Prucha go in a trade.
Now I'm worried about losing Tyutin to Russia.

Someone mentioned the possibility of arbitration dumping a good young RFA (who then becomes an UFA) in our laps. What would everyone think if Garth Snow screws the pooch and dumps Mike York out on the open market. Any interest in bringing him back as a second (or even first) line center?

Then you could be looking at a first line of York/Jagr/Shanny
A second line of Nylander/Prucha/Straka
Third line Immonen/Cullen/Hall
Fourth line Orts/Hollweg/Betts/Ward.

That second line is somewhat soft and you could mix those combos up. But if we'd never been stupid enough to trade Yorkie in the first place, there isn't a person on this board who wouldn't now be thrilled to have him in our top six. It really would be like having out own home-grown talent back, and he could be very good for awhile for us.

So, what do people think?

Pghas

I mentioned the possibility of GMs declining salary arbitration awards and while I like York he was not who I was thinking about when I made that comment.

Daniel Briere of the Sabres was reported to have been award a one yr 5 million contract and the rumor mill is going supersonic about either Briere being traded or allowed to walk. IF a Briere was made availible could the Rangers be interested in a player who put up 19 points in 18 playoff games? You have to think they would.

What about the Coyo's Mike Comrie or Laddy Nagy who will be having their hearing in 2 weeks. Barnett the Coyo GM is not going to be able to keep both so would you like either?

The Habs Ryder, Oiler's Hemsky, RWs Williams, or the Shark's Bell are some of those who will be having hearings between now and Aug 4th. Would the Rangers be interested in getting any of these players and if so there would have to be moves made to adjust for cap space.

Oh and just for an FYI, there appears to be a bit of confusion as to what exactly Hall's salary status is. NHLPA.com lists Hall as signed for next season at 975,000 but several others still have him listed as due for a arbitration hearing on Aug 2nd.

Pghas, I actually wouldn't be super thrilled about getting York back. He's a nice little player, but I believe he's overrated by some Ranger fans because he was traded for the antichrist, Tom Poti. I know he was on a bad team last year, but he really didn't play that well from what I could see. Also, who is he going to bump out of the top six slots? Is he demonstrably better than Cullen as second line center? I'm not so sure about that.

Now when Jess mentiones Daniel Briere as a potential pickup, I start to salivate. He's one guy I've heard mentioned in several rumors connected with the Rangers, and while it's a longshot, I really hope it comes to pass. He's a dynamic player, only 28, and is incredibly clutch as well. Adding him to the top two lines would make the Rangers a vastly more dangerous team.

I'm braced for the arguments that getting him would send a bad message to the prospects that they won't get an opportunity to make the team, or that the Rangers shouldn't be going outside the organization to fill their needs. Poppycock, I say. (I've never actually said that in my real life, BTW.)

Hello everyone...it's nice to see the posts about the Dom Moore trade finally easing up a bit.

As far as Prucha is concerned, let me make my position known before peopple start shredding me. I want him to stay. I like the kid personally and I like watching him play. I don't know if any of you were there for the one game that he played in Hartford, but I was and I have tremendous seats and in that game he put a move on where first he left a forward so out of the play that the guy was actually in the stands buying a popcorn for the guys on the bench and still didn't realize that Prucha was by him and then he faked out the d-man AND the goalie so badly that when he put the pill in the twine that even the other bench including their coach applauded the play. It got a standing ovation from the crowd and I will tell you this, it was the coolest most electrifying goal I have ever seen scored in my life. It was amazing. If you were there check in about it!

That all said, Prucha is NOT untouchable. Before any says yes he is, would you trade him for Kovalachuk? If the answer is yes, then logically he can be traded for the right deal. If you say "no" I wouldn't trade him for Kovy then either you're crazy or you're Jagr and realize that Kovy won't vaccuum your apartment nearly as well as Prucha can. AGAIN, I don't want to trade him, but nobody except maybe Jagr (it would have to be one hell of a deal) and even more remotely Lundqvist (again, I don't know if there is anyone I would trade for him myself...) are untouchable.

The word that I am hearing from sources is that there is some chatter among the brass that while he had a sensational rookie campaign they are concerned that his game might not be a long term game and thus good for the team. Personally I disagree with that assessment except that he is going to definitely adjust his game some or he's going to get seriously hurt.

As for the comments about Tyutin going anywhere, he's not. Think about it for a minute. How many teams have resigned all of their restrcted at this point? Christ, people are talking about Buffalo being possibly the best team in the freakin NHL next season and 2/3 of the team are RFA's. Tyutin will resign and so will Hossa and certainly so will Rozival. I would still like to see them resign Sykora but that isn't likely going to happen.

AS the phrase goes, folks, don't get your panties in a bunch...this is going to be a great campaign and IMO one of the most memorable in Ranger history...

BTW, Jess, put me down for $5 towards the Dish fund...

Lurker- we'll let you off the hook on the "poppycock" for now, since this is only July; but once the regular season starts, you best be back on your game. Anyway, I don't think acquiring Briere would draw the reaction you suggest -- i can only speak for myself, but my opposition to the Moore trade in no way indicates I'm against the Rangers going outside the organization to upgrade under any circumstances, and I don't believe Dubi is making that claim either. Briere would be a nice pickup indeed, and if not him, then maybe something else promising is looming on the horizon, as Jas continues to hope. If and when it happens, rest assured the pro-Moore camp will evaluate the move on its merits like everyone else.

It's not so much that I feel Prucha is untouchable. It's that I don't see them moving him for a high priced RFA in a trade. Could he be moved for a younger prospect with a lower salary? Possibly. Until the Rangers find out exactly what type of a player Dawes, Cliche, or Callahan will develop into at the AHL & NHL level, it would be unwise of them to move their only proven goal scoring prospect (young player) at this time.

Now if Dawes was a year older and both were putting up 20+ goals playing for the Rangers this would be a completely different story...

Wolfgaze

Sometimes, it's not that easy. Sometimes scouts and management are asked to projct what they believe a player will become given proper development and growth. Smith did this with Savard and York. In fact, there did this with Moore. They believe they have players who can equal and surpass what Moore gave them last year, and made him available to get a player themight have in the system (Hall) but not NHL ready. Yes, it would be nice if we knew exactly what we would get from Dawes in his first NHL season, if we traded Prucha for an opportunity to get a player who would fill a ling term need of the organization. But, it doesn't always work that way.

Mitch

Thanks for the donation LOL

Ok turning to hockey, Tyutin is a RFA and reportedly was confused about his role with the Rangers (IE Is he an offensive or defensive dman). Last season he was bounced back and forth due to who he was asked to partner with and IMO that hurt his game because he never could concentrate on either side. I know people are going to say he should be good at both but the reality is there is a difference between playing as a 3 or as a 4. You are expected to do different things and thus his mindset gets messed up.

He also I think people forgot was still learning the NHL game as this past season was just his first full one but so many said he was a disappointment. Add in his best friend not only being traded but reportedly heading back to Russia and you can't discount the possibility of him choosing to spend some time in Russia working on his game.

I do agree with you on Prucha as I also think too many within the Ranger think that his style of play is too reckless for his size. I also get the feeling that some within the Rangers think that Prucha's rookie season was a bit of a fluke so I too do not view Prucha as untradeable as I think the Rangers would move him in the right package.

As to the suggestion of Mike York.

The upside: He put up some good numbers when you consider where he played, and who he played with. He hustles at whatever position you put him at, in whatever game situation he's in, and whatever the effect a game will have on teh standings. He's been bounced around the league a bunch and I'd love to have him back.

The downside: Injury prone. In many ways the discussion of Pruch scares me, because in a lot of ways Prucha reminds me of where York was after his first season.

York v. Cullen: While I can't say with any authority that either one is better, at around 3 million each, it keeps the cap gap for late season improvement at a nice place, and it does offer the rangers options. The result may be that instead of having 2 dominant scoring lines, we have 1 dominant, and 2 more lines that can score and play hard. One of these lines would have Shanny on it, and who knows what he is going to do.

Contrast this setup to adding, say a guy like Gomez or Briere. You get a dynamic two way center, both of whom know how to play defense, but now we have a $5 million guy playing second line center. Long term this is scary, buuut the Rangers are fotunate enough to have a dominant first line in Straka/Nyls/Jags. I've also heard after Jags is done with this contract he's heading back to Czech republic to retire.

So really, I guess the question is are we looking to get a young-ish (26-29) center to build around for his prime, or are we looking for an exciting sparkplug to make a competitive second line. So I guess the largest consideration: can York, Gomez, Briere, etc. fit one if not both of those molds.

Orangedan

York/Cullen: I give the edge to York mainly because York has been pretty consistent in his career despite being injury prone. Cullen basically took a pretty solid season last year and turned it into a nice contract.

Given a choice of Gomez or Briere I take Briere because with centers you can always move them to wing (which the Rangers are going to have to do given how many prospects they have in the middle).

It is a tough call as Gomez is a solid player but after watching Briere last season and even in 04, I still think he is just beginning to show his true potential.

Jess

I would more or less concur. The more important question at this point though is what is the Rangers goal for building. If we do go after either Gomez or Briere we're committing to a number one center for number one center money. We're taking a huge bite out of the cap.

York fits the bill of a center/winger that will play well with our current roster, and has some longevity to him. Gomez/Briere bring a higher talent level with them, but are also the heir apparent to the number one center position, and will become a core player. Then again, we may just be in a cap position to have a 1 year expensive upgrade.

I guess the concern that I'm not really articulating well is that you really have to watch where you commit big money under this new cap system.

You will never sell me that Jagr is a bad investment for the roughly 4mil per season we pay him. Shanny is a risky investment, but he's a one year guy that in a worst case scenario could get us something come trade deadline. Gomez/Briere are players that are looking and thinking long term, and are in their prime.

That makes a signing of either of the big two a much tougher risk.

It should aslo be noted that Gomez thinks he's worth about 7 mil per season. My personal opinion on that score is that he's a playmaker that had a breakout season (his first trip to the 30 goal plateu) playing on a line with Gomez (who broke the record for goal scoring with the devs) and Elias (no comment necessary). Sure for a while he was playing with Parise and he has great playmaking ability. But I think his inflated numbers are going to end up propelling him to a contract price that is higher than his worth. I'd hate to see us committing more than $5 a season for him.

I'd like to say that GM's around the league will be smart, and if the Devils lose him to free agency, he won't see a salary that bloated. But then again, I'm pretty sure somebody will pay it. Probably Wang for 15 years.

that will teach me to proof read after I post. Please note that Gomez played on a line with Gionta, and not Gomez, and I'm sure you are aware that it was Gionta who broke the record.

cheers.

If there is anything to this arbitration "coop", it most likely involves Gomez. He can lug to puck into the zone with great speed and we will have a few defensemen to trade which will help the Devils cap problems. I've never felt that Gomez is a first line center; he can't make a pass on the fly and he seems to have an attitude problem. The only thing that stands in the way of that trade is that the Rangers and Devils are in the same conference and neither has much of a history of dealing with the other. This kind of move also would place Immonen back in Hartford. Maybe the trade will happen after camp opens...the Devils need to be under the cap before the regular season begins so they may have a little more time on their side. The Rangers get to see how Immonen, Dawes, Richter, Pock, Cullen and Betts perform before they pull the trigger and the Devils get to see if their defense needs help. About the only asset they have is Gomez (at least that can get them out of thier cap problem). If Immonen and Dawes looks real good in camp, then I think the Rangers pull the trigger.

NO GOMEZ, NO GOMEZ, NO GOMEZ
just like no Leetch to NJ
I didnt even want Elias to be our big acquisition.
aside from the rivalry aspect, i just dont think Gomez is a #1 or a leader - he's just a very talented forward in a very good fitting situation - and since I dislike the Devils; I am amused he will screw the team with his demands and find his less happiness somewhere else

Great post by OrangeDan on Gomez. I agree completely of your assessment, and wish only to add that this is yet another illustration of how a player's value may vary depending on the context in which he is playing. Sure, it's exciting to speculate about adding this guy and that guy to the Rangers; at the same time, it's important to make sure any such addition is actually a good fit.

Orange

I too have to remember to proof read before I post LOL

I prefer Briere over York and Gomez because of the potential upside.

Now while I like the current crop of Ranger prospects, I am also know that none of them could fill the first line center role which Briere would fill (and be a huge upgrade over Nylander).

Anisimov, Immonen, and Dubinsky are all viewed as second line centers at best. Russell, Ryan, Graham, Dupont, Olver and Roche are expected to be moved to wingers. Pyatt IF he develops will be at best a checking center and not enough is known about Zeliska to form a judgement.

As much as I prefer building from within, a chance to get a Briere would be worth exploring even if the cost is a couple of prospects.

The rangers should go and try to do wut ever they can do to get briere the guy is wut the rangers need a goal scorer and he is a playmaker also.
if it was up to me i would trade montoya and jessiman for him. Personaly i think both of them stink and lots of teams want montoya so get rid of him hes garbage no way he will take henriks spot

Any time you can get a 1st line player you do it. Historically the team that receives the 1st line player in a trade does better than the team that gives him up. I don't view Gomez as a #1. I also see him as a 2nd line player (although a very good 2nd liner).

Well now that Ralph has decided what the Rangers should do then someone should contact Sather and make it happen.

Ralph has to be a teenager the way he behaves as his comments do not offer anything but childish rantings like "they stink".

It is only thing to say let us make a move but to base it on "both stink" is one of the dunbest ideas I have seen.

Pleaes grow up Ralph

ralph -

yeah, well, while Montoya's stock is still good, Jessiman's is not. Thats not to say I know he wont ever make it, but right now hes not coveted at all. Plus, Buffalo is stacked at the young up and coming goalie position. Buffalo would have to pass on signing Briere and hed have to then become a UFA for us to end up with him.

Not sure how this conversation degenerated into Scott Gomez. I hate that guy. He hates the Rangers. No way, if he does end up leaving the Devs, that he signs with the R's.

Jess,

How much do you think it will cost the Rangers to go after Briere, and do you think it will be worth it? I can't imagine him costing anything less than Prucha and at least one or two prospects or a picks. I agree that Briere is the best out of the bunch, but I'm not sure that giving up so many players will be worth it. I am a strong believer of building from within and allowing prospects to develop and grow under your own organization. I just think that it might be wiser to let the better bunch of our prospects develop and start playing in the NHL before we go after a top level scorer and become true Cup Contenders. Also, what is the likly hood of such a trade happening?

Hey jess wut ever your name is this is the second time u commented about me and im stating to get pissed off u really think the things u write are so great. Oh i dont want shanahan hes to old. now the rangers got him and ur like oh i love this guy make up ur mind. Hall stinks to u well great everyone has there own opinion.
and y is everyone asking for ur opinion. who are u top scout for the rangers u know nuthing

Ralph-

The cool thing about this board is that everyone RESPECTS each others opinions, even ones that we do not agree with. Relax, be more respectful of others, and you will not be singled out by anyone. In fact, your opinion will count just as much as anyone elses.

Volk-

I would also like to think that Ranger brass would be interested in Briere, however I just don't see the Sabres letting him go. Earlier posts here about Dominic Moore mentioned a concern about the message being sent to younger players in the minors. I think Buffalo has to consider the same. Briere is their captain!!! What message would it send to Sabres fans everywhere if they get rid of him? I know that Buffalo has 8 other arbitration cases pending, and they surely will have a cap problem when all the hearings are over, but I still have a hard time believing that they would unload their captain. Maybe some other Sabre players go in a fire sale, but not Briere.

listen guyss i havent said anything disrespectful to anyone but every opininon i have jess thinks im childish wuts the deal with that is he like that with everyone cause i havent said anything wrong about him

OK, Ralph, I'll bite. Here are a few tips:

1. Write in actual full senetences
2. Spell words correctly. "What's," not "wutz" - stuff like that may be easier to type, but makes you appear stupid.
3. Have an argument to support what you're saying. Why is Jessiman someone they should trade, and my five year old can do better than "he stinks." How about - "we've wasted enough time and money trying to develop Jessiman, if someone actually thinks hes worth something decent at this point, we should move him," or "I saw this kid play and he was slow and didn't hit anyone, hes no power forward, lets try to move him."
4. I've "known" Jess (through these and other boards) for years, and he doesn't pull any punches when it comes to stuff like this. Nonetheless, its his way of pushing you to either present stuff that's worthy of the time and energy he and others spend on this forum or beat it. This post is my way of doing that. Good luck.

Volk

FOr Briere the first thing you have to do is to not look at it from a Ranger fan POV. Reality shows that hometown fans tend to overinflate the trade value of those they want to get rid of while under inflate the pricetag of those they wish.

(Breaking NEWS as this post was being written the Sabres announced that they had signed RFA Alex Kotalik to a multi year deal before his own arbitration hearing)

That being said let's look at what Briere has done before making the Sabres an offer:

In 402 NHL games Briere is 130-151-281. He is going to turn 29 in Oct and is 5'10 180.

His best season as a pro came in 03-04 when he was 28-37-65 in 82 games. He was however in just 48 games last season 25-33-58. With 4 straight seasons having 20 goals makes him a consistent scorer.

His salary is jumping from 1.98 mil to the 5 mil he was just awarded. We also have to take into consideration that the Kings, Habs, and Thrashers are reported to be interested as well.

The Sabres will also have (including this award) 19 mil left with 14 players unsigned to deal with.

Now factor in Lindy Ruff's type of system and I offer them Petr Prucha who makes 550,000 (cmon you don't expect him to come cheap now?), Blair Betts (550,000), and Jarrko Immonen (reported to be 450,000).

This offer gives the Sabres some serious cap relief given their needs as they now can move other players. It will be an unpopular offer by Ranger fans but that is why it is a fair offer because fans on both sides will say they got ripped off.

To address out of order.

Ralph,
aside from the obvious lack of depth in your criticism that Jess pointed out, you have to ask the question as to why the sabres would take that trade. Ignoring for a minute how rediculously one sided it is, are you aware that at the moment they are looking to unload a goalie, not take on another one? And Jessiman? I mean, as long as we're playing fantasy camp here, I think the Rangers should trade nylander for thornton, straka for cheechoo, and a third round pick or so for Kovalchuk.

Or - maybe that wouldn't work.

Jess,
I guess one of my big problems with a Briere or a Gomez deal, aside from my obvious dislike of Gomez is the fact that at the moment we don't need a number one center. I'm the first person to jump on the badnwagon that Nylander is NOT a line 1 center. He can't win a draw, and when Jagr went down, he couldn't elevate his game.

That being said, Straka - Nylander - Jagr is a great first line. I wouldn't mess with it. They obviously put up points, they have great chemistry, and they are good defensively since when they have the puck you can't take it from them. As it turns out, I'm pretty sure with Jags in the lineup, we don't really NEED a line one center. That isn't to say that having one wouldn't be nice. What we really need is to be able to ice a SECOND line of guys that can score some goals and take some of the pressure off of the first line. A line that can generate when the top d-unit is out trying to shut down Jags and Co.

Shanny was a great addition. Our powerplay just got plain old scary. Our second line has a guy on it that can handle the pressure to score, and *hopefully* is still able to do so. Prucha is a great young kid with a ton of upside deserves a chance to prove himself on that second line. Rucchin is gone, and Cullen would seem to be the heir apparent. Given his age, and the season he had last year I have to believe he is the band-aid second line center while we wait to either land a truly talented center, or have one develop on us. He should get second line dutes because he can put up points, set up Shanny, and leave the spots on the third and fourth lines open for kids to get their shot at developing.

::Sigh::

And in this vein I feeled compelled to risk mentioning the name Hall. He fits into one of two spots now. Either he plays on the second line, or he gets a shot on the third line with Prucha to develop more. I promise, I won't use the words physical, or goal to talk about him further, I'll just say that he will probably be placed somewhere on the 2nd or 3rd line.

Bottom line, I just can't see how a big name, big money center fits in to the plan of growing from within, by the time we're ready to turn the team over to our new, young, just hitting his prime leader, Briere will be 31-32.

So in conclusion, I like York, younger, cheaper and fits more or less the same bill.

Apparently I'm developing bad eyesight. Forgive the mistake, York is the same age as Briere.

>>>Now factor in Lindy Ruff's type of system and I offer them Petr Prucha who makes 550,000 (cmon you don't expect him to come cheap now?), Blair Betts (550,000), and Jarrko Immonen (reported to be 450,000).<<<

You know I can appreciate what Briere brought to BUF last season and I saw first hand what he brought to them in the playoffs(as I watched all of their 2nd round and 3rd round games) However, in the direction that this team is moving, where would it make sense to subtract those three guys, who combined will put up Briere's numbers(if Immonen makes the team and he should) and perhaps more, for a lot less money? Also, they are younger(Prucha, Immonen) and next year there will be younger UFA's available since the UFA age is going down unless I read one of ESPN's reports wrong ... the Rangers do have room but where is the rule that says that they have to fill that cap room now, this season? What's to say that they aren't leaving room for themselves for the season after that? I am just saying ... It's like the Rangers get slammed if they trade the youth away, but when they stand their ground and don't then everyone is ready to speculate that they should do just that ...

Jess

While everyone is focusing on Briere, might Buffalo try to keep him, and possibly deal Connolly instaed? I'm not sure what Connolly makes, but he'd still be an improvement at 2nd line center over Cullen, since he's a much more of a playmaker. I know he has a history of concussions. But, maybe that would bring down the asking price. If you are correct that Hall is destined for the 3rd line, does that mean, in your mind, Jason Ward could end up as 2nd line RW, adding both a defensive presence and a bit of a physical one, too? Say a deal for Connolly happens, (although I'm intrigued by your suggestion of Comrie, which given Sather's history with the family, is also a possibility), would the following lineup suffice: Straka/Nylander/Jagr, Shanny/Connolly/Ward, Prucha/Cullen/Hall, Hollweg/Betts/Ortmeyer (or Greg Moore). And, if Straka's past history of injuries comes into play, maybe Dawes gets a shot sometime during the season, sliding next to Cullen and Hall, with Prucha moving up the 1st line.

Jess: After the Moore deal you were fairly bitter about the wrong message it sent to the younger players. I don't understand why you would propose sending three young guys(Prucha, Immonen and Betts) to the Sabres for the soon to be 29 year old Daniel Briere.

I had mixed emotions about the Moore trade but your proposal here contradicts what you have been saying for a long time.

I do not know whether Briere is worth the three guys mentioned from a value standpoint and I certainly do not want to see a 29 year old guy come in place of a kid like Prucha who potted 30 his first year in North America, Immonen who looks to be a player and Betts who showed some promise after being injured many of his early years.

There are quite a few small guys in the league now that get bounced around but can score and create chances....Briere being one of them. I can't discount Prucha's rookie season. Yeah, he did wear down but he will learn to pace himself for the rigors of an 82 game North American schedule.

I respect what you write, envy your ability to watch and talk with the WHL junior players and more times than not agree with your thoughts.

I am having a hard time understanding why you would even float a proposal like the Briere deal as it is just the opposite of what you and many others have been voicing for many years both here and on RFC. Young for older is not the way this team should build for the future.


I offer them Petr Prucha who makes 550,000 (cmon you don't expect him to come cheap now?), Blair Betts (550,000), and Jarrko Immonen (reported to be 450,000).

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For Daniel Briere?

Can we give them Lundquist, too? Why not throw in Montoya and Anisimov while we're at it?

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