Keep the Kids on the Ice!

One game in -- one the Rangers won no less -- and already Tom Renney is talking about sitting out his two new rookies, Brandon Dubinsky and Marc Staal, according to various reports (see the Post, Rangers Report, Blue Notes). Somehow, he thinks that career underachiever Marcel Hossa can be better on the fourth line than Dubinsky, who can at least win face-offs, hit, and fight, and that good guy depth defenseman Jason Strudwick can be better on the third defensive pair than Staal, a can't miss future star. And all in the cause of standing a better chance to win the second game of the season against the Ottawa Steamrollers.

Not a chance. On the first day of training camp, Renney said it would be a bad thing if after twenty games he was still trying to figure out which new center was the right fit for Jaromir Jagr. He still has a way to go before Game 20, but Game 2 will be only third in which Jagr is centered by Chris Drury after experimenting with Scott Gomez most of camp and pre-season. If it's OK to be messing around with the chemistry of your top lines at this juncture, why not give Dubinsky and Staal at least one game beyond their opening night jitters to get comfortable? The upside there is light years ahead of the alternative -- that "dormant offense" in Hossa has already continued to slumber long after it got its wake-up call. And the Steamrollers are going to do their thing either way.

For more news on what is shaping up as a warm sunny Saturday in New York, see the Daily News on Marek Malik, the Journal News on the Rangers' face-off success opening night, the Times on the Garden's zamboni driver, the Globe and Mail on the Rangers' lawsuit against the NHL, the Record on why the Rangers won't win the Stanley Cup (as if we haven't heard this one before), NYR.com previewing tonight's game, the Courant on Ken Gernander, and Prospect Park catching you up on a busy Friday night of action among Ranger prospects in the amateur ranks.

A Florida paper reported about Panther coach Jacques Martin calling their trade of Roberto Luongo to Vancouver the worst in NHL history. While Ranger fans may argue in favor of the Rick Middleton trade, hands down the worst trade was indeed the Luongo trade -- but not that one. It was the first one in which the Isles traded him along with Olli Jokinen (now a longtime Panther star and captain) for two players who never did much of anything, with Luongo being available for that draft day trade because the Isles were planning to select Rick DiPietro first overall instead of Dany Heatley. Imagine the Isles all these years with Luongo, Heatley, and Jokinen instead of DiP and a couple of long gone underachievers.

There is an animated ad over on the right sidebar for Sports Travel and Tours. We've made no arrangement to promote them further than running their ad, but while we have a moment to breathe on a Saturday, we'd like to call your attention to them as they offer a great opportunity, in this year of scarce Ranger tickets, to see the Rangers on the road. If you live outside the New York area, they can get you over here and into the Garden, or they can get you into an NHL arena near you. If you live in the New York area, treating yourself to a road trip to support the team in an enemy building is always a lot of fun. As you can see, they also offer packages to the Hockey Hall of Fame induction ceremony, which this year will be headlined by Mark Messier.

Comments

[lennynyr]

Regarding Staal and Dubinsky, if it's a one game benching just to give the kids a chance to observe and learn from the bench, fine, but if it's a long term benching, I definitely have a problem with that. I will pour forth my wrath on Renney as I have done before. Let's see what he does the next few games.

Most good coaches would play the kids until they are now part of the regular team or eventually sent down for more seasoning, not left to get splinters from the bench.

[cwgatti]

Not so fast. In Ottawa, the home team is just waiting for the chance to isolate that 3rd line, and send Heatley-Alfredsen-Eaves/ any warm body over the boards. So, let's use some sense. Hossa needs to play for two reasons. One, is that he is better defensively than Dubi (even though they play dif positions. Two, they need Hossa to show some signs of life so they can move him. The Rags need to make a trade for a Dman. Stall or no Stall that is obvious. Hossa needs to show something so we can throw him in w/ Mara, Montoya and get something worthwhile in return.

[Matty]

I do not think that benching these two players, specially on a road game vs the Sens of all teams is a horrible thing ... not if this becomes a habit then I will have a problem with it but unless you didn't see the Sens first two games they are pretty much playing very well right out of the gate ... The biggest problem for Staal and Dubinsky imo was adjusting to the NHL speed and the Sens are one of the speedier teams in the East

[scinoc]

If Renney turns to Strudwick vs. the Sens, it's going to be a major problem. He's too slow and will get torched by the Sens' speed. He is strictly a spare part. At least Pock won't be completely overmatched, speed-wise.

[rangerbill94]

I'm not sure this is a "Hossa showcase". This makes perfect sense to me. I posted after the FLA game that Pock and Strudwick should be put in for the OTT game. Why? The lack of experience with Staal and the not so good showing for Mara makes me feel that two experienced D's, against this explosive team would be a better play. I would not consider this a benching, just a possibly better fit for this opponent. With respect to Dubi/Hossa, this is the real strength of this team...DEPTH! Dubi got knocked on his butt at least 4 times and this is going to be a physical game. Hossa is very strong on his skates, is willing to work the corners and can be effective on the first or fourth lines and is a shootout strength. I think this is using ALL our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses. To me, that is what coaching is all about. From what I saw Thursday night, Staal and Dubinsky will get plenty of ice time over the season.

[Matty]

i mean NOW not NOT lol

[lennynyr]

Think Mara is too expensive for other teams to consider, moving Montoya will mean the Rangers just have Henrik and Valiquette hasn't proven he can stop pucks at the NHL level.

I have no problem if it's just a one game benching but from Renney's previous moves, he gets too technical and can always come up with a reason, in every game, to keep the rookies out. His kind of thinking is like trying to balance a triangle on the pointed end. Just try something without analyzing it to death Tom.

[Godot]

Hello! The only person in those three reports who had Hossa replacing Dubinsky was Larry Brooks. Both blogs suggested Hossa would replace Orr. Dubi, I'm kind of shocked that you would jump to the conclusion that Hossa was replacing Dubinsky--that's not your style. And although you have no love for Hossa, you needn't jump to other conclusions. Who knows maybe that would give our fourth line some muscle and some potential scoring pop.

As for Staal and Mara, I like the pairing. I expect Pock to be traded in a package.

[Dubi]

Yeah, but Sam and Steve were just speculating as to who would sit, while Larry had direct quotes from Renney that the young guys were the ones he was thinking about sitting out. No way Larry is just making that up. And no way Orr or Hollweg do not play against the Senators and their Neils and McGrattans, not after what happened during pre-season.

[Matty]

I'm surprised as well Dubi ...

I just read the links you posted and only Brooks(shocker) mentions swapping Dubinsky for Hossa ... Both Zipay and Weinman, who are 10 times less agenda driven than Brooks, both said that Hossa might replace either Orr or Hollweg ...

Regardless, my original comment stands ... against this team, on the road? I have no problem if he sits both of them ... afterall, it's all about our depth and putting the players in who give us the best chance to win and if he makes changes and they don't work out and then he doesn't adjust then I will be the first to complain but if they do? I have nothing negative to say about it.

[Matty]

Just read your reply Dubi ... those direct quotes that Brooks had were part of the same that Renney commented in his post game and if you go to the Rangers website(the real one) and click on Rangers OnDemand see Off-Day interviews in "What's New" you can hear Renney for himself ... I still don't believe it's the end of the world vs a high flying, clicking in almost all areas, Sens team on the road to sit out the kids if that's in fact what he does ... although one has to think that he isn't sitting out all kids since Cally and Girardi are clearly playing

[imitation]

DUBI I agree, & I'd like to see Orr get the chance to straighten both of those guys out. I'm sure that would make Drury happy too.

[lennynyr]

My main concern is that Tom is too technical to go along with giving his rooks a chance to adjust.

You can argue that last season Girardi and Callahan were worked into the lineup but wasn't it injuries that forced Tom into using them and they fortunately played too well for Tom to take them out?

[Phill]

There is no way the Rangers can bench Orr for this match. The Senators have their share of thugs in this line up (think of the Neil hit on Drury last season). That leaves benching Hollweg for Hossa, which for this game, I'd approve-- even though Hollweg played a respectable game Friday. If Orr is benched, liberties will be taken and Renney will feel that same regret he felt after that Flyer game last year.

Honestly, how much better is Pock/Strudwick/Hossa/Anyone else basically, going to do than Staal/Dubinsky against the Senators.

It'll be rough regardless of what substitutions are made, therefore, why don't we just leave BOTH the rookies in so they can participate in this "NHL learning curve" that Renney has been preaching this whole time?

I don't know, I'm not ready to jump down Renney's throat yet, but if he does bench them, I'll definitely see this a hypocritical action along with a step backwards in the process of this team's maturation.

[Dubi]

Matty, the quotes were not from the post-game press conference, in which Renney said Dubinsky would be right back in there, they were from practice yesterday.

[imitation]

"It's a consideration in that while we want to do what's in the best interests of these young players, at the same time we have to be responsible to the credibility of what we need to do as a team to win," Renney said yesterday. "Understanding that there's a learning curve for young players, I want to put the lineup on the ice that has the best chance to win......." from LB.

[lennynyr]

The balancing of triangle on wrong end analysis continues from Tom.

[czechthemout!!!]

what a surprise,the "great coach is at it again"I am surprised it took only one game though.To all those who argued with me(imitation)about strudwick,there you have it.Renney is putting in a player who is undeniably the slowest skater on the team against one of the fastest group of forwards in the league,brilliant!I am shocked at some of the fans hockey iq on this site.while it is true that both dubi and staal were very nervous in the first period and a half of their very first home opener,it is also obvious that what turned the game around was the kings goal tending,and the last two shifts of the third line(including dubi)late in the second and early third period.In fact renney even put dubi on the powerplay as a reward.I also take it a face value that he wanted a more defensive presence in the remaing minutes of the third as the rationale for replacing dubi with betts.To go from not "punishing"(renney's words)to benching is a cowardly and disgracful move!Something that i am sure is not going to help his confidence.As for Staal,he made some shaky plays during the first 30 or so minutes,no doubt about it.But if you watch the third you will see how much stronger he played,and his confidence started to grow.He looked very strong in the third period.Moreover his play was not any worse than malik(minus the 3 assits)or rozy who also looked very shaky early after he scored his goal.In closing iwould have no problem replacing Hollweg with Hossa.I would not even mind if dubi started on the 4th line between Hossa and Orr,but scratching Staal in favor of a slow hockey challenged dman who no one even offered a contract last year is a remarkably stupid move by a coach who may be a nice man,but is constantly proving why this team will never win the cup while he is behind the bench.

[cwgatti]

Stall hasn't proven anything yet. I think if Stall played 40-50 games this year, that would be a great step forward in his development. A trade is coming. It has to. Strudwick is not the answer.

[cwgatti]

And Renney is a great coach.

[Ryan]

Czech - you give Renney too little credit as a coach. He's the best we've had in years. He's done some great things with this team and young players are being implemented at a steady pace. That being said, I sure hope that Strudwick does not play any part in this game. I'd rather have Pock in than Strudwick. Like all of you have said, Ottawa is one of the speediest teams in the NHL, putting Strudwick in would be asking for trouble. Personally I say let's give Staal the chance to play against the Sens. Great learning experience.

I have no problem not playing Dubinsky today, however. Leaves me curious though, who would center that 4th line? Either way Hossa could very well be needed against one of the most lethal powerplays in the NHL. Orr will play. Renney won't be making that mistake ever again. Maybe play Dubi, bench Hollweg so we have a center on that 4th line? I guess we'll see.

[Matty]

"Matty, the quotes were not from the post-game press conference, in which Renney said Dubinsky would be right back in there, they were from practice yesterday."

Dubi,

that's why I said go to the "What's New" section and there you will find "Off-Day" interviews with Renney were the quotes that appeared in today's paper came from ...

[baron34]

Does Renney think that by putting Hossa and Strudwick in tonight that those two will put us over the top against the Sens? That's absurd.

These are the type of games that your kids learn from. If it takes a few errors against one of the elite teams, so be it. Later in the season they will be the wiser for it, and they, quoting Pete Townsend, "won't get fooled again".

If you sit them against the better teams, you show that you don't really trust them, and the next time you play those teams will then be the first time for the kids. They will probably make their mistakes later instead of now.

If the kids show that they are totally overmatched, then it's an indication that they are not ready, and maybe they need some time in Hartford. But if they excel against the Sens, you know you have the real deal, and they can play against the best teams. Now, early in the season, is the time to find out.

Renney is once again overthinking a situation. He said that he will give the kids a long look and a chance to prove that they are ready. Looks like one game is a long look to Tom.

Keep the kids in the lineup!

[rangerbill94]

czechthemout

"minus the 3 assists"! Now that's priceless! Your goal is to see as many young players on the ice as you can. Renney's goal is to WIN AS MANY GAMES AS HE CAN! Sorry, I'm on Renney's side.

[imitation]

czech I doubt he's going with Strudwick. Probaly Hossa & Pock will be in place of them. It's only game 2, but there is no denying Renny's leanings. No matter what he does, they'll be disagreement.

[oleosmirf]

After the game against Florida, Marc Staal is not ready to play against Spezza, Heatley, Alfredson etc. Jason Strudwick is a steady defender, who is never out of position, physical, and won't hesitate to drop the gloves. This move is for one game not for the rest of the season. Dubinsky on the other hand is more than capable of playing 82 games in New York. For strategic purposes Betts would probably see more action because of how dangerous Ottawa is offensively. Renney is going to put out the best lines depending on the opponent and if that means scratching Staal or Dubinsky ONCE IN A WHILE, I am all for it.

[baron34]

Cwgatti:

No, Renney is NOT a great coach. He's an average coach with a great goaltender and great players who thinks he's a great coach.

[MikeA]

It's not a big deal and I'm the biggest play youth advocate ever. One game and then they have three days off. I know Dubi will be playing against the Islanders.

The Brett Hull trade was pretty bad too. The Joe Thornton trade was horrible. Rangers? Either Middleton/Ridley/Zubov/or the LA fiasco.

[imitation]

czech if you believe Renney can't win the Cup, then there won't be much to discuss except what kids you want . That's a pretty poor way to start the season. You want kids to get a chance, but Renney has no chance. That makes sense to you?

[oleosmirf]

As Herman Edwards said, "You play to win the game." Renney will play the players he feels will give the Rangers the best chance to win. If it comes at the expense of Staal or Dubinsky well I'm fine with that.

[ant]

Amen

[Matty]

"No, Renney is NOT a great coach. He's an average coach with a great goaltender and great players who thinks he's a great coach."

So Baron ... You say that Renney has "great players who think he's a great coach" then what you are telling me is that you are a better judge as to what a good/great coach is instead of the professional great players that we have played for many other great coaches themselves are?

I just think that you and others who don't like Renney is a personal thing and that no matter what he does it will never be good enough ... you jump all over him when something goes wrong and when things go right, which is mostly what has happened since he took over, that's ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda.

By your agenda I mean the agenda of the people, not just you, who love to criticize Renney ....

But that's never going to change ... Renney is an incompetent fool who deserves absolutely NO credit whatsoever about the way this organization has turned it around since the lockout and great players who name him as one of the reasons they want to play for us don't know what the hell they are talking about because the lord knows he's a waste of space as a coach ... RME.

[jon]

I think people are forgetting how good Hossa was when he played with the big boys last season. He got hurt and never really had a chance to get his game back. Are we really giving up on him because he had a bad pre-season? I still he he should play with Jagr because he can use his size to control the puck, and he's a better finisher then people give him credit for. Also, I'm not sold as Avery on the second line, here's how I would reconfigure the lines.

Hossa Drury Jagr
Staka Gomez Shanny
Pruch Avery Callahan
Hollweg Betts Orr

Done and done

[jason]

steve zipay is reporting that mara and hossa are the scratches tonight... no word on pock

[T_Bird]

Guys,
Please.
It's game 2.

Let Renney coach for awhile. Let (I can't believe I'm saying this!) the GM manage. Let them put the best team on the ice they think will win the game.

Fortunately, 99% of all these back seat coaching moves aren't happening. And for those that stumbled on that remaining 1%, maybe you should apply for the job. All of you micro-managers need to sit back and refrain from turning all the dials just as we are entering orbit.

I'm already tired of reading "Malik stinks", "Renney is stupid" "Trade Hossa.. Pock.. Mara.. Strudwick.. Malik.." Cripes, if they listened to you guys we would have 4 defensemen on the team. Coaching by Committee doesn't work.

It's game 2. It's not 9/11.

[jason]

oh, my mistake... pock is scratched too. staal is in with strudwick

[Matty]

Jason ... I am SHOCKED!

Are you saying that people jumped the gun in bad mouthing Renney for unfairly benching the kids and now it comes word that NEITHER of the kids are benched???

Just color me shocked! :O

[oleosmirf]

Good I hope Staal proves me wrong.

[Colorado Mark]

If he is indeed benching Mara for his penalties (where he stepped up to defend a teammate and was penalized) I am worried about the message that sends. The pre-season was refreshing seeing players stick up for one another no matter the scoreboard. Admittedly, there is a time to turn the other cheek, but that time is not the first game of the season when teams are expecting the same old Rangers who used to let their stars be targeted nightly. I am not bashing Renney, whom I respect, but I am a bit concerned about his reasoning.

[lennynyr]

I'm not crucifying Renney at this point. Too soon. I just have concerns about his previous methods. I do think that he over analyzes but hopefully, like all of us, learns from his mistakes.

As far as Hossa and Malik are concerned, if the Rangers win with them in the lineup, fine. I would still like to see Renney incorporate the Black Ace concept and rotate Hossa, Hollweg, Orr and Avery (yes Avery) with Betts, Bring Dawes back up and put him with Shanny and Gomez. Avery's offense is still a big question mark for me.

Rangers need to trade 2 or more of their present D and get another stud back there. That's a tall order since the price of the D's they might consider trading are just to much for other teams to carry for the quality they are getting.

[jason]

wow... renney really can't make everyone/anyone happy... i wonder what this place would have looked like under the trottier months

[iceycup]

what the hell is the deal with hossa? why does he get so many chances? where does his rope run out? does he have compromising photographs of someone? how long will the team wait for his offensive side to wake up? ya, hes good against the boards. ya hes a decent penalty killer. ya he's good in the shoot out. i just dont get it. let the kids sit when they have a chance to get some real exp in against a very good team? i think the rookies have more upsides that their replacements. o well.

[imitation]

oh well looks like Dubinsky & Staal are in, so there goes the Renney knocks down the toilet for another day. People show their true colors fast.

[Matty]

iceycup,

The kids aren't scratched tonight ... as Jason posted, and you probably haven't read, it is Hossa/Mara and Pock who are scratched tonight ...

[lennynyr]

That's half of the battle, the other half, how much TOI they get and when they get it.

[LI Joe]

lenny - come on you know better than to use the hr only got in because of injuries rational. 2 words Lou Gehrig. And I'm not saying you're that old.

Matty great post at 1:38. I could never have said the same thing as politely as you did.

Colorado Mark great post re Mara. I don't like sitting a guy for sticking up for a teammate if that is the reason

[Cuch]

Well both Dubinsky and Staal are in the lineup. I guess the lynching of the only coach to lead the Rangers to the playoffs since Colin Campbell can be put on hold for another day.

People need to relax.

[imitation]

just what is the NYR's main goal this season? To my mind it's certainly not Dubinsky & Staal befor everything else. Whatever way Renney & Sather get to the finals, is THEIR choice.

[lennynyr]

LI Joe,

"lenny - come on you know better than to use the hr only got in because of injuries rational. 2 words Lou Gehrig. And I'm not saying you're that old."

Close! Don't celebrate birthday's any more since the last one almost burnt down the house as the excessive heat from the candles melted the cake.

With that out of the way, let me ask you. If there weren't injuries last season, you think Callahan and Girardi would be in the lineup today?

Maybe Renney learned something from this and since that has worked out well, he is hoping the same thing from Dubi and Staal. If so, he's learning.

[Phill]

I wasn't bashing Renney per se, only had he benched the kids and even then, "bashing" is a strong word...

I don't think any one is being a back-seat coach. It's people expressing their opinions. If you want to interpret it that way and are perturbed by it, maybe a Rangers fan message board isn't the best place to visit.

For the record, I agree completely with Matty about how Renney deserves a lot of credit for this franchises turnaround.

Also, to all the Malik haters, read the following:
(ALL credit goes to 'Calvin' of Rangerland.net)

"Let’s look at how Malik affects his teammates in two ways - do his teammates allow more goals or less goals without him? Do they score more goals or less goals without him?

Does Malik reduce goals against for his teammates? Well, let’s answer that question by looking at the statistics provided. First, I’ll limit this analysis to player who spent more than 100 minutes on the ice with Malik at even strength. Let’s start with Jaromir Jagr. Jagr spent 579:58 on the ice at even strength with Malik, during which the Rangers allowed 17 goals - a rate of .586 goals allowed per 20 minutes spent together. Now, how did Jagr do without Malik? Jagr spent 655:13 even strength minutes without Malik, and the Rangers allowed 27 goals during that time, a rate of .824 goals allowed per 20 minutes. It’s pretty easy to see here that without Malik, Jagr was on the ice for more goals against. Now, is this an isolated effect? Absolutely not. A similar effect is seen when looking at these statistics for (in increasing magnitude of reduction of GA) Nylander, Hossa, Avery, Rozsival, Ortmeyer, Hollweg, Cullen, Prucha, and Shanahan. The only players who performed better in terms of ESGA/20 without Malik were Girardi, Betts, and Straka. It’s pretty clear that overall, Malik improves the team defense.

Does Malik help his teammates score more goals? We’ll look again at the next table down on the page, which lists the same information. Now, to be fair, we’ll look at Jagr again. Jagr does in fact score a little bit more without Malik. They were on the ice together for 34 goals at even strength in the same timespan of 579:58, a rate of 1.172 goals per 20 minutes. Without Malik, Jagr scored 41 goals in 655:13, a rate of 1.25 goals per 20 minutes. So, yes, Jagr manages to score goals at a slightly higher clip without Malik than with Malik. However, of all the previously listed players (who spent 100 or more minutes on the ice with Malik at even strength) other than Jagr and Hollweg, none of them are on the ice for a Rangers goal more often without Malik. Rozsival, Nylander, Straka, Cullen, Hossa, Shanahan and Avery are all on the ice for a Rangers goal significantly more often with Malik than without him, to the tune of a half a goal for or more per 20 minutes when on the ice with Malik. This is pretty clear-cut evidence that Malik improves the team offense.

In short, even though he’s maligned on this board and by fans in general, the numbers show that Malik makes his teammates better, which is what hockey is all about."